iDEAL Dutch Gateway discussion

brettbrett FoxyCart Team
in Bugs & Feature Requests edited December 2009
Hello all.
Thanks for voting up the iDEAL feature request . As we've started to explore we have indeed realized that iDEAL is a bit more confusing than the typical gateway. If anybody could help us better understand how it works, and any special considerations, we'd be grateful.

My biggest question at this point is: If iDEAL is implemented differently between different banks, which banks are people asking for? @maggoo said:
Therefore i would like to suggest to also have a look at www.mollie.nl and www.multisafepay.nl. Both are payment providers with a link to all banks using ideal plus several other payment options, but most off all with easy api's, so implementation of these two will be much easier and faster and gives Holland the possibilty to embrace the great foxy cart:)

Is everybody in agreement about that? Anything else we all (as a community) should discuss prior to implementing something?

(Again, we don't have a timeframe for this implementation, but we want to make sure the pieces are in place for when we do.)

Thanks!
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Comments
  • Brett,

    I'm looking to connect Cardgate right now in Conjunction with Expression Engine. It's not much more then a POST form with a hash variable. I too came to the conclusion that it's much wiser to us this or Mollie instead of the banks directly

    Cardgate offers creditcard payment and paypal at the same time and is a bit cheaper. Mollie is bigger, better documented and offers payment through the banksite directly, which feels more confidently. Since you already offer Paypal and credit cards, Mollie would seem like a logical choice.

    You can find the documentation here:

    https://www.mollie.nl/beheer/betaaldiensten/documentatie/ideal/en/

    Noregt.
  • brettbrett FoxyCart Team
    Thx Noregt. Would that be the _only_ method we'd need to implement in order to call the iDEAL integration "done", or if we only do mollie.nl will others need other iDEAL methods added as well?
  • noregtnoregt Member
    edited December 2009
    Brett, I'm not an expert in Payment Portals (if so I would have made a checkout already myself, I really needed one), but I'm sure there is just ONE Ideal method. Mollie is one of the portals that uses it. Since every bank has it's own portal, with limited support, it's better to use Mollie.

    Most banks offer Ideal through Ogone payments, as a' white label'. I've been looking at Ogone as well, but they charge a monthly fee which was just to high for a starting business. Some people have more trust in the Ogone portal (Safer, wider usage), so it might be that they will start asking for this, but in the end they all address the same Ideal method.

    So there is just one Ideal method, but there are different portals, each with their own price-setting and method. It might be that some prefer other portals then the ones mentioned, but that doesn't make it impossible for them to use Mollie.

    I will look further into Cardgate and Mollie the coming two weeks, if I notice anything interesting I'll let you know. That said, having Ideal with Foxy cart, is a deal-maker for me!
  • brettbrett FoxyCart Team
    Thanks @noregt. That's very useful. We'll update either this thread or the request board once we get started.
  • expanismexpanism Member
    edited December 2009
    I totally agree to use www.mollie.nl and/or www.multisafepay.nl
    Can't wait to use iDEAL with Foxycart and MODx!
  • Why not look into these modules for Zen Cart?

    http://www.zen-cart.nl/downloads/betaalmodules/index.php

    I would love to help out, to get this up and running quickly
  • lukeluke FoxyCart Team
    Thanks boudie. iDEAL is definitely on the top of our list for new gateway development.
  • xsmalbilxsmalbil Member
    edited January 2010
    hi people, I started the request for iDeal and Im glad to see that you people start to develop for it.
    I would like to add that using a mollie account is really nice. Mollie only cost 1 euro per transaction and works with all the banks. iDeal lite and iDeal easy only cost 0,75 eurocent per transaction, but
    do not have a very solid and safe system for sending an OK back to your webshop after the payment has come through.
    Mollie has got a better portfolio of customers using Mollie. Big companies trust them.
    MultiSafepay is less famous then Mollie, but has some cool features:
    - iDEAL-transactions only 49 cent.
    - option to get daily payments ( Mollie pays up ones a month )

    But because MultiSafepay is really CHEAP.. I do not trust them. They are even cheaper than the people who develloped iDeal...nl ING and RABO bank.
    Mollie is a serious company who also does advertising for their products. So dear FoxyCart developpers.. choose wisely :)

    Im working with osCommerce right now and have some PHP files that contain the code for this. Here are the download links with source files:
    iDeal Advance& Lite through Mollie =
    http://addons.oscommerce.com/info/6195
    iDeal Advance& Lite through Mollie =
    http://addons.oscommerce.com/info/4319
    iDeal Easy for ABN Amro=
    http://addons.oscommerce.com/info/4828
    iDeal Lite for ING payments =
    http://addons.oscommerce.com/info/4365
  • OliverFOliverF Member
    edited February 2010
    just my 2 cents...

    I would vote strongly against mollie and multisafepay, just because they have nothing to do with ideal, they have implemented ideal payments into their systems, they are gateways in themselves who have in their own backend implemented the link to ideal.

    I would suggest to go direct with ideal, especially as it is so easy to connect to, even though it might be confusing in the beginning.

    I have worked with ideal for at least 2 years, it is integrated in my current content delivery solution, works like a charm, easy to implement, I helped develop the plugin for it - from the end user side of things.

    www.mollie.nl and www.multisafepay.nl are payment service providers themselves, like paypal or worldpay or whatever.

    iDeal is a gateway in itself and deals with the banks behind it, you do not have to worry about that, nor about the coding logic, all you have to do is connect to ideal.

    Basically a dutch bank accountholder with one of the participating banks applies to be able to accept ideal payments into their account. They must then setup their cart to connect with the ideal system, the ideal system takes care of the routing to the participating banks. All you do is insert a piece of code that connects with the ideal system.

    SO my idea is to leave mollie and multisafepay out of it, much easier to go direct to ideal, also cheaper. If you like I can send my plugin so you can check the code and see how it is done, should be easy for you guys to figure it out then.

    Every step extra in a checkout increases abandon rates - I know because I tested - if you go through mollie or multisafe, this is what will happen.
    1 your site
    2 mollie or multisafe (change of domain number 1 - never good for conversion)
    3 ideal
    4 back to your site

    With foxycart it should just be
    1 your site
    2 ideal
    3 back to your site

    I keep track of all my shopping cart abandon rates, and do that for the different payment providers I use and I can tell you for fact from my sales/conversions/abandon statistics that whenever you can leave steps out, you want to do that!

    Good luck

    Oliver
  • xsmalbilxsmalbil Member
    edited February 2010
    The idea was to develop a mollie or multisafepay plugin for foxycart, because it links to all banks.
    But please provide a link to your code. All snippets of code could be worth something.

    Anyways good luck yourselve too.
  • brettbrett FoxyCart Team
    @OliverF: That'd be great. Can you whisper me a link? Our forum doesn't accept uploads, so perhaps a yousendit.com type of service would work.

    I'm still a little confused by the situation here, but it sounds like if we go with "straight" iDEAL support as a first step people would be happy?
  • I uploaded the plugin here: http://www.gigasize.com/get.php?d=w8jy1vhyprc

    I can not speak for others, but ideal sounds good to me.
  • brettbrett FoxyCart Team
    @OliverF: Sorry, apparently I'm not savvy enough to figure out how to download that without paying $10 and signing up, and now it says it's reached the limit. If you have a moment could you use yousendit.com? (Not that I love Yousendit.com, but it works and it's free.) Send it to yourself then whisper me the link? Thanks so much.
  • I managed to download the ideal.zip and have placed it on yousendit.com
    http://www.yousendit.com/download/S1VCSmJ6MGNveE1LSkE9PQ

    I will be happy with "straight" iDEAL
  • OliverFOliverF Member
    edited February 2010
    expanism, thanks for placing it on yousendit.

    brett, hope this works for you to figure it out, I'll add some thoughts about my understanding of the ideal system

    This is how it works:
    - ideal works with private key (which you use on your end in the cart and upload to ideal back end as well) and a certificate from ideal (which is provided by ideal).
    - on your checkout page you place a snippet of code that calls on an ideal script and shows the available banks - ideal takes care of the banks)
    - customers then chooses his or her bank from the dropdown list - still on your checkout page
    - shoppingcart posts details to the ideal site and the customers - by the ideal system - are sent automatically to their bank's internet login screen on ideal
    - customers then log in on their internet bank account and ok the transaction
    - ideal posts the transaction results back to your shopping cart

    So all you need to do on the foxycart side is integrate the certificate things, place a snippet that calls on ideal to show the banks, and ofcourse the posting of transaction- and merchant details to ideal and the accepting of the transactionresults that ideal posts back.

    On the merchant side, this is what is needed:
    - merchant with a dutch bank account
    - merchant applies for ideal account (easy for dutch bank account holders)
    - merchant - upon approval - gets access to ideal backend in testing mode
    - merchant has to run series of test transactions which have to work ok
    - merchant upon completion of test transactions asks to set ideal live
    - ideal checks and sets it live.

    To test you would probably need access to an ideal account, I do not know if you can get that from your end of the world, you might need someone from the netherlands to go this route with you to check and make it work.

    Hope this helps.

    OliverF
  • brettbrett FoxyCart Team
    Ah, ok, so I think I was fundamentally misunderstanding the approach. iDEAL isn't a traditional gateway then, in that it's entirely behind the scenes. Rather, using iDEAL requires the customer to leave the checkout entirely, much like PayPal's Express Checkout or Google Checkout work?

    I feel like an idiot asking these questions publicly, but I've done some quick googling and I haven't found a really solid sort of overview to the options and approach, so we do sincerely appreciate you all helping us better understand.

    Some followup questions:
    - Are customers paying via credit card or bank transfer, or is it kind of up to the customer?
    - Does anybody know the "official" iDEAL site? I know we have Mollie and Multisafepay links, but anything else?
    - Does iDEAL support subscriptions or recurring billing? I'm assuming that since the customer pays off-site that FoxyCart wouldn't be able to support recurring billing the way we are currently.

    Lots of fun stuff to think about. Thanks again everybody for helping us understand.
  • Brett,

    Answers to your follow up questions:
    - Are customers paying via credit card or bank transfer, or is it kind of up to the customer?

    Customers pay through their online bank, it is an immediate transaction, the money can not be charged back either, it is final.

    - Does anybody know the "official" iDEAL site? I know we have Mollie and Multisafepay links, but anything else?

    http://www.ideal.nl/?lang=eng-GB

    - Does iDEAL support subscriptions or recurring billing? I'm assuming that since the customer pays off-site that FoxyCart wouldn't be able to support recurring billing the way we are currently.

    NO support for recurring
  • brettbrett FoxyCart Team
    Thanks @OliverF
    So if a merchant is using iDEAL would that typically be the _only_ payment method they accept? What about accepting international purchases?
  • Brett,

    This is what I do in the netherlands:

    - accept creditcard payments through rbsworldpay
    - accept iDeal payments
    - accept offline payments
    - sometimes also accept paypal

    For international sales - in english speaking countries I only use paypal, worldpay and clickbank, in other countries it depends on the banking system and how easy it is to establish a local presence.

    Which means on the checkout page I give my customers an option to choose how they want to pay. For offline payments I have a follow up email connected which increases conversions.

    I found that more payment options mean more sales.
  • brettbrett FoxyCart Team
    Would it be common for a merchant to take only iDEAL and not any other option? In the US a it's common to see a store only accept PayPal or Google Checkout, but it's generally better (and probably the rule with any "real" online business, not the exception) to accept non-PayPal payments as well. Just trying to understand the norms. Thx as always for your help.
  • merchants would take more options, in the netherlands it would be wise to have the following options:
    - creditcard
    - offline payments
    - ideal
    (-paypal)

    The dutch banking system is pretty advanced to what you find in most other countries, direct transfer into someone's account happens a lot. We do not work with checques at all.

    If I leave an option out, it costs me money. I would guess this to work across the board.

    So on my typical checkout page - dutch ones that is - I ask them at some point on the page to tick the preferred method of payment, the cart then deals with that.

    This is what you want to do with foxycart imo.

    Regards

    OliverF
  • brettbrett FoxyCart Team
    So what gateway do you use to accept credit card payments? That's _not_ iDEAL, right?
  • That is right, creditcards is NOT ideal. I use rbsworldpay.com and I use paypal.

    iDeal does just one thing - and that only - allow dutch bank accountholders internet access to their bankaccount - through iDeal - to OK a direct transfer into the bank account of the merchant.
  • With all due respect to Oliver's valid points, i still think that a mollie or multisavepay solution would suit more merchants.

    As i see it, one of foxy's cart strenghts is it's pricing, making it a good option for small merchants. Now, should you make an Ideal solution to hook up directly to the 4 banks that provide it, apart from all the different variations the 4 banks have, it would mean for the merchant having to pay not only foxy but in almost all cases also their bank for the ideal gateway. On average it would at least double their fixed costs. For a small merchant, and a Dutch merchant:), that would mean some hesitation.

    Apart from that aspect, as has been pointed out, a direct hookup with ideal would only cover one paying method, whereas with mollie you have several.

    Lastly, hooking up with one of the psp's would mean that they can provide you with plugin's for load's of platforms, meaning oscommerce, joomla etcetcetc. Again, for the smaller merchants this would mean less hassle, and that's a good thing:)

    Load's of pro's and con's for each method, why can't we just use paypal in the Netherlands:P
  • maggoo,

    You said:
    Quote Now, should you make an Ideal solution to hook up directly to the 4 banks that provide it, apart from all the different variations the 4 banks have, it would mean for the merchant having to pay not only foxy but in almost all cases also their bank for the ideal gateway. On average it would at least double their fixed costs. For a small merchant, and a Dutch merchant:), that would mean some hesitation. end of Quote

    What you say regarding ideal and the 4(? - it is more already) banks is just not true. Just one price per iDeal payment. And yes, you do have to pay extra for foxycart. But that remains the same whichever route this goes.

    Foxycart does not have to hook up with 4 different banks. Foxycart just hooks up with iDeal, and whenever a new bank is added, foxycart does NOT have to change a thing. As far as payment is concerned I get charged just for my iDeal payments directly by my bank.

    Regarding paypal, ofcourse you can use that in The Netherlands, probably already part of current foxycart checkout options.
  • Ahh nittpicking, 2 bad.

    To Paypal, yes of course one could use that, unfortunately customers don't in NL, so you are stuck with Ideal (and with don't i mean a large percentage...).

    As to the numbers of banks, whatever, but it's still not all the banks.

    As to the costs, come again. I believe only ING doesn't charge at the moment for one particular Ideal variation (lite, basic whatever). ABN lite does, and as you chose a more advanced solution all banks charge a fixed fee... So it could well be that you still have an account without a fixed fee, but overall considering all possible variations, fixed costs are an issue for smaller merchants (or those that don't like to be charged for allmost anything by their banks:P).

    I am no programmer, but i do think you underestimate the implications of the different variations (lite, advanced, "internetkassa", etcetc.) and the testing involved from foxy's POV, but to expand on that would go beyond the scope of a simple forum post, and probably beyond my time and knowledge:), so i will give you that...

    I do believe i made some more points in favor of hooking up with a psp that also still stand, let's hope some other potential foxy users give their opinion on the choice between the two options.

    Btw i do agree with your point on less steps in the checkout, but as i said pro's and con's on each side.
  • brettbrett FoxyCart Team
    Hey guys.
    Thanks for dialoging. It's actually really helpful. I think that what we need to do is support iDEAL straight up (if possible; we'll keep our fingers crossed wrt the multiple variations and whether or not that impacts our implementation) but it also appears that other solutions are desired.

    As far as mollie or multisavepay go, am I correct in understanding that those systems are similar to PayPal in that they're 3rd-party checkout systems, so a customer would be forced to leave the FC site checkout and authenticate on a separate site?
  • Checkout and authenticate; Mollie no authentication needed, Multisavepay it is needed but only a name and password is needed there. For both you leave the merchant site, although multisavepay has one solution in which it is not needed. Then the normal ideal process, for each variation.

    Currently i am using ideal lite, the straight up one, authentication through your bankcard and i-identifier, and in this process the bank doesn't post the transaction data back, as a merchant you are informed through email instead. You are also leaving the site in this process. Again there are variations in which you don't have to leave the site.

    It's funny, talking about ideal is almost like explaining to foreigners why we enjoy liquorice and gouda cheese:)

    I will bump a topic on the dutch joomla site about foxy that i have made earlier, see if it attracts some more flavors.
  • I've been doing some research and it appears that ogone gateway includes iDeal but is suitable for many more European countries (UK, Zwitzerland, Germany etc.)
  • brettbrett FoxyCart Team
    We're discussing the iDEAL request. At this point it looks like we have a few options, and more questions. We'd love feedback from you all to help us provide you with the best solution available.

    As I understand it, iDEAL would be a separate payment method (payment gateway, paypal express checkout, purchase order, iDEAL, Google Checkout (eventually), e-check (eventually), etc.). So in the FoxyCart admin under "payments" there'd be a separate section to enable iDEAL. Further, since you could do iDEAL directly or through Mollie.nl or MultiSafePay.nl or sisow.nl or Ogone.com, there'd be a select box to choose which method of connecting to iDEAL you'd like to handle.

    First question: Is that an accurate understanding of iDEAL? We've done a lot of research, but some of the sites have no English translations (MultiSafepay's site has a British flag but it's all "there's no translation available"; can't find english on sisow.nl; etc.) and we haven't found many examples that help us in understanding the approach _we_ would need to take (as a system).

    Second question: Options suggested so far include:
    * Mollie.nl
    * MultiSafepay.nl
    * sissow.nl
    * Ogone.com
    * ideal.nl (direct)

    There seems to be some debate about what the "best" approach is, but given what we've heard so far it seems like Ogone and Mollie.nl may be the best first options, unless we can find English docs for sissow. (Ogone has 60-something votes on its own, so that's a win too.)

    We'd love continued feedback on this, as we'll be starting development as soon as we understand what the heck is going on ;)
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